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Tea House 2.0
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Sarasota_Ken
Joined: 30 Nov 2008
Posts: 397
Location: Florida
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 Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: Thank You All |
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Thank you all for giving me a look at who I think I am again. I'll back away and come back some other time.
Oh, and keep doing whatever it is you're doing unless you're an addict of some kind. If that's the case, I hope you find out how powerless you truly are.
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Ken
The qualities we possess should never be a matter for satisfaction, but the qualities we have discarded.
WEI WU WEI, Five Fingers Pointing Towards The Moon (1958) |
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Oh, and keep doing whatever it is you're doing unless you're an addict of some kind. If that's the case, I hope you find out how powerless you truly are. |
Despicable. To tell people who need to help themselves that they are powerless to do so . . . That is truly vile. Not to mention dangerous. But I cannot say I am surprised at you.
Don't hurry back, will you.
Richard
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"You never see an old man having a Twix." Karl Pilkington.
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becca
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 5148
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Thank You All |
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| Sarasota_Ken wrote: | | Thank you all for giving me a look at who I think I am again. I'll back away and come back some other time. |
Dear Ken,
sometimes a small break can do us good, but even more so if it is for 'nourishing' reasons 
if nothing else your posts have provided an 'alternative' perspective and that in the long term can only be good for the development of all of us, yourself included
| Quote: | | Oh, and keep doing whatever it is you're doing unless you're an addict of some kind. If that's the case, I hope you find out how powerless you truly are. |
now i could be mistaking you with another ken (i do not have the world best memory i'm afraid, if i am then please ignore the references to your recovery at the end of this little bit ) but if i recall when you first joined you said you had been through a 12 step prog or at least were in recovery for alcohol?
if so then i'd imagine you have experience upon which to base your 'powerless' assessment so i won't poo-poo it
I will say that for me i found in recovering from an abusive relationships, depression, breakdowns, drink reliance and so on the turning point came when i took back my own power over myself and my situation in life .... on domestic abuse support and advocacy the emphasis is very much on regaining power over a situation and realising not ones powerlessness but ones power that one is not utilising.
if recognising powerlessness works for you though then fabulous for you and hope your recovery continues
beccaxx
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Knowledge is like knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in your fruit cocktail.
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | if nothing else your posts have provided an 'alternative' perspective and that in the long term can only be good for the development of all of us, yourself included |
It didn't do me any good. And if someone who really needs to find the strength to help themselves read his misanthropic statement above, and believed it, then it could do them a lot of harm.
I won't 'poo-poo' the fact he is powerless, if that is what he says. But to assume that about others and to attempt to undermine the struggles some people who come through here have is contemptible. I am sorry for his problems with addiction; but if he thinks the solution to them is to try to disempower everyone else then he needs telling. I was close to one former member who is trying to break free of addiction, and I know how hard it is for her. There have been some moments where she has been terribly weak but she made it through. Had she met Ken during one of those weak moments, who knows?
Richard
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"You never see an old man having a Twix." Karl Pilkington.
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Mr. O
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not taking sides Richard . . . but there could possibly be a misunderstanding due to an incomplete thought.
He is the one who said "I step back and get in touch with my "higher power". . . . and that's the other part of the 12 Step philosphy. . . . "admit that you are powerless" . . . .part 2: "turn your life over to a higher power".
Although the 12 steps aren't for everybody, a huge number of people live by them addiction free. . . . he MAY have just left out step 2. 
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. O wrote: | I'm not taking sides Richard . . . but there could possibly be a misunderstanding due to an incomplete thought.
He is the one who said "I step back and get in touch with my "higher power". . . . and that's the other part of the 12 Step philosphy. . . . "admit that you are powerless" . . . .part 2: "turn your life over to a higher power".
Although the 12 steps aren't for everybody, a huge number of people live by them addiction free. . . . he MAY have just left out step 2. |
Quite probably true. But while I know little about the twelve steps, surely making such incomplete statements completely out of their correct context and without the skilled leadership of counsellors and other addicts, is reckless? I didn't just make up the former member I know who is dealing with addiction and I am acutely aware of how she would have reacted.
Richard
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becca
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 5148
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Apostrophes wrote: | | Quote: | | if nothing else your posts have provided an 'alternative' perspective and that in the long term can only be good for the development of all of us, yourself included |
It didn't do me any good. |
hi richard,
Perhaps i should have said 'some' rather than 'all' or 'potential good'.
Although i tend to think the ttc (and the yi jing) is quite clear of the potential for such situations to be good learning and teaching tools for the dao cultivator
'good' as in providing potential for: - self reflection, reflection on daoism, reflection on who is attracted to daoism, reflection on why someone feels a certain way about 'dao' and so on and so forth ...
i admit i like ken, i don't think he has negative motivations and i do think he wishes to understand ... i think he has maybe not got the best social skills and perhaps this is part of why his attitude comes across or can come across as quite disrespectful and un-engaging ...
having said that his taking a break now is perhaps a good idea for all concerned.
| Quote: | | And if someone who really needs to find the strength to help themselves read his misanthropic statement above, and believed it, then it could do them a lot of harm. |
It could you're right, hence the rest of my above post detailing the turning points of my own experiences and that rather than 'powerlessness' it was re-taking/regaining that 'power' over ones life which aided my path escaping those issues ... to provide an alternative to kens advice for anyone reading who might be facing recovery or addictions or abuse etc issues.
| Quote: | | I won't 'poo-poo' the fact he is powerless, if that is what he says. But to assume that about others and to attempt to undermine the struggles some people who come through here have is contemptible. I am sorry for his problems with addiction; but if he thinks the solution to them is to try to disempower everyone else then he needs telling. |
any form of recovery be it depression, substance abuse, other abuse and so forth is in many ways individual. (to a point)
each persons understanding of the process will be different, usually subtly so but sometimes more noticeably.
i honestly do not think ken was intentionally trying or desiring to undermine anyone --- i think his intentions were good, if methodologically mishandled.
Again hence the other part of my post presenting an alternative road to a 'recovery' than 'powerlessness'
| Quote: | I was close to one former member who is trying to break free of addiction, and I know how hard it is for her. There have been some moments where she has been terribly weak but she made it through. Had she met Ken during one of those weak moments, who knows?
Richard |
There is an equally strong likelihood that either they and ken would have had a discourse about their shared experience of substance issues or as has happened here already someone would have presented an alternative 'recovery reality' to the one offered or part offered by ken thus providing anyone with said issues a different reality to consider than kens ...
which really is about as good as one can hope for ... just as for some the 12 step plan and variations thereof works, for others they need other methods to go into and remain in recovery
providing alternative recovery narratives is a fairly recognised, as far as i'm aware, method of helping others into recovery programmes, dv shelters, therapy and so on.
the yi jing speaks clearly and concisely about intention being almost as important as the action taken ...
I think kens intentions are and were good and that is, again imho, worth alot.
That being said i hope that when/if ken reads back here he will note the points raised about his comment on additions/recovery and remember to flesh out the principles or at least link to a helpful website or organisation ... or offer to pm with said website and/or organisation that is what i would do and often do.
beccaxx
_________________
Knowledge is like knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in your fruit cocktail.
Feel free to Pm or email derek and/or myself with any queries. |
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AlR
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| becca wrote: |
...
I think kens intentions are and were good and that is, again imho, worth alot.
...
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| Mr. O wrote: |
I'm not taking sides Richard . . . but there could possibly be a misunderstanding due to an incomplete thought.
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Becca, Mr. O, and Evil Atheist,
I admire your posts regarding Ken. Your posts demonstrated a level of compassion that I am working to develop. Not that I felt bad about my posts that might have contributed to this result, but it did take a tremendous restraint on my end to be as fair as I think my posts were towards him (my original thoughts were more stinging).
Over the last two months I have to say your posts have led me to put more effort being more compassionate in what I write.
Richard, I appreciate the effort you put in helping us learn more about the Tao. I've learned a lot about Daoism because of your posts.
Thanks all
Al |
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Luo
Joined: 03 Dec 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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A brook babbles outside my hut
And in its song I find 84.000 gems;
Fish play in gentle currents.
Leaves whisper of long-forgotten Sages
And I listen.
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I am a drunkard, drunk with life; I am a fool lost in the madness of extasy.
http://ruanji.wordpress.com/ --MY BLOG |
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There is an equally strong likelihood that either they and ken would have had a discourse about their shared experience of substance issues or as has happened here already someone would have presented an alternative 'recovery reality' to the one offered or part offered by ken thus providing anyone with said issues a different reality to consider than kens ... |
Likely only if they knew where he was coming from. But since he leaves most questions unanswered and likes to quote even himself out of context, then there is more chance damage would be done. I asked him about the higher power he mentioned, which pertains to the 12 steps as it turns out, but he ignored me. In fact, I tried more than anyone else to get to where he was coming from, but he evaded each probe.
And when he goes around telling people to keep doing what they're doing and ignores questions about that, his advice, on the face of it, is keep taking what you're taking, you have no power to instigate change in yourself. That is the sum total of his posts here over the last week and his message to addicts.
As I said, I have sympathy for Ken and don't begrudge him his way of dealing with his addiction, but his struggle with addiction is not an excuse for trying to pull the rug out from beneath others.
Richard
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"You never see an old man having a Twix." Karl Pilkington.
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becca
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 5148
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As I said, I have sympathy for Ken and don't begrudge him his way of dealing with his addiction, but his struggle with addiction is not an excuse for trying to pull the rug out from beneath others. |
dear richard,
To say ken is 'trying' to pull the rug out from under folks is possibly not representative ... i honestly think he meant and means well, trying to help rather than hinder.
That it might not work quite as he intended is i think no reason to assign negative intentions to him ...
but i do hope he reads this and takes in the importance on such issues of completing his thoughts as not doing so could be dangerous for others.
Air --- thank you for your kind words, i think you too made an effort ... it is exasperating to talk with someone whom one feels isn't really listening or engaging in the conversation properly ...
again i do tend to feel ken is perhaps not the best communicator in the world and that is doing him a disservice more so than his intentions
perhaps this might end well enough afterall ...
beccaxx
_________________
Knowledge is like knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in your fruit cocktail.
Feel free to Pm or email derek and/or myself with any queries. |
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To say ken is 'trying' to pull the rug out from under folks is possibly not representative ... i honestly think he meant and means well, trying to help rather than hinder. |
Whether he intended to or not, the effect was the same. And even if he started out meaning well, so many people told him how he was coming across but he refused to really engage with any of them. He just kept going. AD asked a very good question that struck at the heart of what he was trying to say. Had he answered the question, putting his statements in context, it would have been different. But he ignored it. I asked him about his higher power and he could have explained where he was coming from. But he ignored me too. He had so many opportunities but he passed them up. In the end, I have to ask myself why.
Richard
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"You never see an old man having a Twix." Karl Pilkington.
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becca
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 5148
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Apostrophes wrote: | | Quote: | | To say ken is 'trying' to pull the rug out from under folks is possibly not representative ... i honestly think he meant and means well, trying to help rather than hinder. |
Whether he intended to or not, the effect was the same. And even if he started out meaning well, so many people told him how he was coming across but he refused to really engage with any of them. He just kept going. AD asked a very good question that struck at the heart of what he was trying to say. Had he answered the question, putting his statements in context, it would have been different. But he ignored it. I asked him about his higher power and he could have explained where he was coming from. But he ignored me too. He had so many opportunities but he passed them up. In the end, I have to ask myself why.
Richard |
I believe the why is simply that ken is not so good in social situations and communication is not a strength of his ...
either way i think his intentions are not to harm or not deliberately harm ... certainly he has given no reason for us to believe he was actively trying to pull the rug out from under anyone seeking recovery.
beccaxx
_________________
Knowledge is like knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in your fruit cocktail.
Feel free to Pm or email derek and/or myself with any queries. |
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Apostrophes
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4475
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:13 am Post subject: |
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You don't need good communication skills to at least make a stab at answering a question. Ignoring people who try to engage with you is something else. Again, the members here bent over backwards for him. But then he did say he likes to stir things up. Maybe he never intended to discuss anything at all.
Richard
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Mr. O
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2435
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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AIR . . . thanks for your kind words. I took them to heart and they came at a good time. Believe it or not I struggle in my real life to stay patient . . . .(or maybe it's not that hard to believe)  I yelled at my 14 year old this morning because she wouldn't get up. Finally after all the patient "please honeys", and coaxing, and having her tell me "NO"!!!! I grabbed the bottom of her quilt and jerked it to the floor and yelled "GET UP NOW"!!!!!!
I just get to the end of my fuse and it hurts our relationship. Parenting is not for the faint of heart, we do make mistakes. . . . it's hard for a 14 year old to take on the attitude of a learner as you're doing.
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