Tea House 2.0

[Sarasota_Ken]

In Derek Lin's book The Tao of Daily Life, Chapter 1 is titled Fish in the Ocean and subtitled What Is This Thing Called Tao. He begins with the story of a young fish talking with an old fish that I won't repeat here. You'll have to get the book yourself. After the story, he writes:

Confucius once said: "Fish forget they live in the water; people forget they live in the Tao." The Tao is the invisible ocean that surrounds us on all sides. It permeates everything at the level of existence, so it is both inside and outside of us. It enfolds us like our own skin, and yet we cannot perceive it with our physical senses.

The Tao is Chinese for "the path" or "the way," but it is also much more than that literal meaning. Sages have attempted to explain the Tao in the following ways:

Whatever the ultimate principle is that underlies reality, we call it the Tao.

Whatever the one truth is at the center of all spiritual truths, that is the Tao.

Whatever the universal source of consciousness is, we will give it the name Tao.

Whatever the force is that is ultimately responsible for moving everything in the universe--from galaxies to human beings to subatomic particles--that force is what we call Tao.

These are only approximations. No one understands the Tao completely, and it is beyond the power of words to describe or define. We live in the Tao, and move within it every day, but like fish in the ocean, we are barely aware of its existence. Once in a while we may catch a glimpse--we get the feeling that there is some power behind the scences, some intelligence coordinating everything--but the feeling is fleeting.

The only way we can approach the Tao is to relax the death grip of logic, and engage the far more powerful tool of intuition. When the rationality of the brain utterly fails to grasp the Tao, the heart will step in to embrace it with a way of knowing that is beyond knowledge. Feeling is the key.

Recognizing the Tao is omnipresent I understand that I am that. Whether you understand this or not makes little difference to me. This is how I live and discuss the Tao in harmony.

Does anyone else feel similar?
_________________
Ken

The qualities we possess should never be a matter for satisfaction, but the qualities we have discarded.
WEI WU WEI, Five Fingers Pointing Towards The Moon (1958)

[Apostrophes]

I for one never said anything different. Derek says you cannot understand Tao completely; he did not say you cannot understand it at all. He said 'Tao' means more than just 'path' or 'way', but he didn't say it doesn't mean that in any sense. He says logic is given up but adds it is replaced with intuition; and intuition is a powerful form of knowing; not not knowing.

And don't forget that a source of something can be a process. The process of rubbing your hands together rapidly is the source of heat. Moreover, what he describes as 'underlying principle' is exactly what the rest of us have been describing here.

Even the fish in the ocean use its currents to travel vast distances. They cannot describe the ocean, but they can understand its processes and harness them.

There is no need to have a lobotomy to be a Taoist. You just need to use your brain, and the 'ocean currents' in a different way.

Richard
_________________
"You never see an old man having a Twix." Karl Pilkington.

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[Sarasota_Ken]

Richard,

I do not speak for Derek only for myself, but what he wrote suggests to me that there is no subject/object relationship between myself and the Tao. The same as a fish's origin is the ocean and it will one day return to its original ocean state, understanding the fish as separate from the ocean is superfluous. When the Tao becomes the object of my subjectivity, it's like a dog chasing its own tail.

I had not idea that fish have understanding of the ocean's currents. I didn't know fish think as we do. Are you saying fish choose to ride ocean currents? I'm saying that's simply what they do as fish, and as human beings, we over-think stuff.

Having a lobotomy would not move anyone closer to or further from the Tao. What is there to understand if all understanding is the Tao, anyway?

I'm not suggesting anyone should do anything different from what he or she is currently doing. Carry on...whatever.
_________________
Ken

The qualities we possess should never be a matter for satisfaction, but the qualities we have discarded.
WEI WU WEI, Five Fingers Pointing Towards The Moon (1958)

[Apostrophes]

[Al Dafirah]

[AlR]

[Mr. T]

hey all,

ken, i feel the same way sometimes, although i'm not sure where that puts me. it would be nice to be able to not think about aligning myself with the tao, and thus do it effortlessly...but that is a lifetime or more away. in the meantime, i think this is where richards point comes in, and that is that I must constantly evaluate myself (or better, evaluate what happens in my life) to see where i am along the path and where i need to correct myself and my actions. thus, there is a definite interaction between what i percieve as my physical self, and the tao.

perhaps the fish does not know to name the current "the current", but it most assuredly knows intuitively that if it swims to a certain depth and turns its body a particular way, it will get carried to the mouth of a particular river, or carried to the spring feeding grounds. most likely it does not have a language with which to identify all of these places and ideas....it just knows.

[Luo]

[The Evil Atheist]

[Luo]

Ah... I'm sorry, I should have remembered all of the above. My point was (and now I'm rephrasing, if this honorable assembly will be so kind) that one should neither say "I'm NOT there" (i.e. put it off), nor "I am there" i.e. finish the journey, as if you can finish it. Walk while oblivious to walking, know, yet be obliviuos to your own knoledge. Somewhere Lao Tzu wrote:

[Persephone]

One more time, it is shown to be true. Wrapping words around Tao is futile. The Tao that can be spoken isn't the true Tao.

Zen Buddhism and it's terms don't reflect on Tao. They reflect on Zen Buddhism, which I enjoy. Its different than Tao, imo.

Living in this moment, what is Tao?

Jan
_________________
"Here we are, trapped in the amber of the moment. There is no why."
Kurt Vonnegut

[becca]

hi ken,

i partly agree but i think to really get the most out of this story and indeed book one can not read the stories/chapters in isolation from each other ...

a good compliment to the chapter 1 is chapter 5 the giant peng bird ~ link, which shows us that we have unrealised potential and to realise this potential is what cultivation is for ...


like the yin-yang, yes we are all swimming in the ocean of dao, but in order to really swim in its currents and nourish ourselves and others fully with dao we have a process to go through ... this process is called cultivation by the sages (both dao and zen sages as far as i'm aware)

it is this process which helps us to realise the dao connected intuition spoken of in ch 1 of dereks book

it is for this reason sages meditated and taught/teach meditation to their students

beccaxx

[Queequeg]

[Sarasota_Ken]

[AlR]