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Is the cockroach a Taoist?
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dusty

Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Posts: 21

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:12 am Post subject:

Mr. O wrote:

I certainly thought the very definition of evolution was from "lower" to "higher" or simple to more complex. So you're saying it's not?

I can confirm that what TEA says is standard science.

I have two copies of a broken gene. The protein would have kept iron from building up in my tissues, but it's broken and doesn't do a thing for me. Over time, the iron overload will kill off my cells if I don't do something about it. However, a number of people have these genes, which, all things being equal, should have been bred out a long time ago.

Why? It turns out a particular bacterium uses these proteins to inject toxins into the cells. People with the broken protein don't get nearly as sick and most won't die. The broken gene allowed us to survive epidemics. Clearly, though, I'm not more complex than the people with the working protein, since I have garbage where they have something meaningful. On the other hand, on a daily basis they're much better off than I am.

In this case, there isn't a "higher" or "better," since it's all about adapting to the current situation, but the hand of evolution is unambiguously present.

Mr. O

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2436
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject:

Al Dafirah wrote:

I totally agree. Darwin's "survival of the fittest" does not mean that the best man will win. It means that survival, ie. evolution, will occur to the fittest for the environment or purpose. In other words, those capable of the most appropriate adaptation (sounds very Taoist to me) for the situation they are in, will survive.

This can be as much a lateral shift as an upward shift. In fact, there are probably few creatures in which it IS an 'upward' shift. More than likely there are many creatures who could be said to be on a 'downwards' shift - egtting rid of extraneous adaptations that they no longer need (like gills...0

Is there a point where the adaptation can go no further? I have not read it, but Gladwell's 'Tipping Point' (Enter Apostrophes stage right) perhaps covers this.

AD

I never thought it was "best man won", I understand the basics of "survival of the fittest", but the level of incredible complexity of the human brain has gone WAY beyond what was needed for survival. It's gone from the "survival brain" to the incredible "super brain" of modern man. WHY?? It seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with survival, writing poetry, developing sugarless colas, T.V. dramas, curing scizophrenia, crying at plays, falling in romantic love . . . . complex creatures we are, so please tell me how "survival of the fittest" has anything to do with the modern human brain?
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Apostrophes

Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4479
Location: England

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject:

Quote:

It's gone from the "survival brain" to the incredible "super brain" of modern man. WHY?? It seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with survival, writing poetry, developing sugarless colas, T.V. dramas, curing scizophrenia, crying at plays, falling in romantic love . . . . complex creatures we are, so please tell me how "survival of the fittest" has anything to do with the modern human brain?

Love has a Darwinian explanation. As does the sort of creativity and ability to communicate that makes poetry possible. The environment we have to adapt to includes other organisms. That is, we are also competing against each other. And the point of survival, in Darwinian terms, is to live long enough to pass on our genetic information. Through natural selection, certain traits make it more likely for you to find a mate. Poetry may not help you survive, but being creative and able to express yourself beautifully has helped us find mates since time immemorial. That's why, to this day, singers get the girls.

There is one thing, as far as I know, that has no purpose whatsoever when it comes to us surviving and passing on our genes: consciousness. We could do everything we need to do just as well without being subjectively aware of doing it and asking why we do it.

Richard
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The Evil Atheist

Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 3688
Location: Western Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject:

Mr. O wrote:

The Evil Atheist wrote:

There is no "advance". There is no "upward movement". It's not simply a matter of perspective. It's just one of those things that are not understood properly. Many people think evolution is about the development of lower organisms to higher organisms but it's wrong. Evolution has no "upward movement". Just enough movement to get to reproducing.

Wow! O.K. I really need you to elaborate on that, and I'd like to ask if that's something you theorize, or something that is taught in scientific academia. I certainly thought the very definition of evolution was from "lower" to "higher" or simple to more complex. So you're saying it's not?

The idea that life goes from "lower" to "higher" organisms is an old idea. It seems very logical and it's one of those things that seems true at first glance. The latest version of that idea was the Catholic doctrine of the Great Chain of Being [at least I think it was Catholic].

It is true that many organisms become more complex due to pressures of environment and competition, but that's not inherent in natural selection.

Many organisms LOSE complexity.

One of the most poignant examples that evolution has no inherent progression from "lower" to "higher" is that the common housefly has a larger genome than a human.

Another example is that when our ancestors split from chimpanzees, we did so by fusing together one of our chromosomes. We have less chromosomes than chimpanzees even though we're the closest relative.

It is also unfortunate that this misunderstanding of evolution has led to eugenics, where mentally disabled people, black people and even people who have had the bad luck to have a serious accident were considered "lower" life forms.
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The Evil Atheist

Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 3688
Location: Western Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject:

Mr. O wrote:

Al Dafirah wrote:

What most people often forget was that Darwin also wrote a book on the idea of Sexual Selection.

"Survival of the fittest", sadly, does not capture what evolution is about in its entirety.

However, the modern human brain does have a lot to do with basic survival.

Whereas other organisms compete on the basis of size, speed and courage, that naturally vacated a niche in which we competed with intelligence.

When we formed into groups because of that intelligence, survival not only became a matter of physical traits, but more on how well we work as a group. This creates a new environment for natural selection (which I would say is the perfect example of Dao following an adaptation some times). Not only do you have to have the physical traits to pass on your genes, you now also have to have mental traits, as females also become selective.

When our intelligence increased enough, that leads to, well, intelligence. Intelligence builds on itself, through memory - through memes. Memories are no longer passed down through the genome but by communication. That is responsible for the amazing things we are now capable of and still continues.

---------------------------------------------------

Human beings are not the only animals capable of great emotions. Elephants have great emotions.

I was recently watching a documentary about the mystery of why some elephants were killing rhinoceroses and humans.

It turns out that these elephants (mostly male) were youngsters during the reign of Idi Amin's time and they were witnesses to the slaughtering of their parents and other important figures in their group. This traumatized them badly. They were later relocated to a national park for safety, but the park rangers didn't know to also relocate an older male.

These males, when they reached sexual maturity, they started taking revenge on humans but also, due to lack of influence from an older male, actually tried to force sex onto rhinoceroses, which they killed when they resisted.

One story that I remember well was one of the people who was in charge of the elephants recalled one of them trumpeting in its sleep. These were baby elephants, who don't have that capability yet. When she ran out to see what was the problem, it turns out the elephant was asleep. So basically, it was having a nightmare about the deaths it had seen.

Another story was about an elephant that suddenly attacked a man who was carrying firewood back home. Witnesses say that after it killed the man, it suddenly quieted down and stared at the body. The elephant was mourning the death.

Elephants are known to mourn other elephants and they have a great memory, being able to recognize the remains of an elephant that died years ago. They have pilgrimages to these remains on their journey to new feeding grounds.
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The Evil Atheist

Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 3688
Location: Western Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject:

I missed this important part last time:

Mr. O wrote:

in the sense that it continued to advance for no purpose when it could just as easily have stopped at any certain point?

Yes, in fact, there are many times when species do not evolve at all, apart from changes in size, which is not always unidirectional.

A lot of speciation events only occur because of a physical barrier was created, leading to a division of the gene pool. Without this barrier, genes are able to mix freely. There would be no real change in the "allele frequency". When a barrier stops this free mixing, the separated population continues only with a limited gene pool and that's where new mutations can dominate.
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rickymoose

Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 959

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject:

[quote="Mr. O"] but the level of incredible complexity of the human brain has gone WAY beyond what was needed for survival. [quote] I don't see this. The brain of modern man is responsible for him conquering his environment ... How can we judge "way" beyond? _________________ My question for you is what do you do to make a difference in our world? Really think about that. So much needs doing and the smallest thing can change another's life. ~Jan

Mr. O

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2436
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject:

rickymoose wrote:

How can we judge "way" beyond?

Easy, look at the necessities for every species to survive, then look at the necessities for the human to survive, then look at everything the human has beyond what is needed for survival. When I see flamingos playing poker, or cheetahs developing a Ph.D. program in Midieval literature then I'll believe that non-essential or what I would call "luxury" complexity is common among all species.
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Mr. O

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2436
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject:

Apostrophes wrote:

There is one thing, as far as I know, that has no purpose whatsoever when it comes to us surviving and passing on our genes: consciousness. We could do everything we need to do just as well without being subjectively aware of doing it and asking why we do it.
Richard

. . . and also all of the pondering about where we came from, why we are here at all, and every other notion of the contemplative life - not just consciousness, but the possibility of altered consciousness, expanded consciousness and alternative forms of consciousness. "We think therefore we are". We want to expand or evolve beyond the consciousness that we possess now. Why? THAT'S not necessary for survival. (Or I guess if it is we'll find out how.) Very Happy

The Evil Atheist wrote:

When we formed into groups because of that intelligence, survival not only became a matter of physical traits, but more on how well we work as a group. This creates a new environment for natural selection (which I would say is the perfect example of Dao following an adaptation some times). Not only do you have to have the physical traits to pass on your genes, you now also have to have mental traits, as females also become selective.

When our intelligence increased enough, that leads to, well, intelligence. Intelligence builds on itself, through memory - through memes. Memories are no longer passed down through the genome but by communication. That is responsible for the amazing things we are now capable of and still continues.

O.K . . . for the first time, to this non-scientist, that makes sense to me. The notion that language became so significant in the way in which humans developed and groups gained superiority from generation to generation. And then language as it became sophisticated gave rise to sharing thoughts, and then feelings . . . and I guess eventually the leap to what Richard says above, the first man or woman thought and then said "I am". Nothing directly to do with survival at all, but a by-product of the thinking that language development must have produced. There's still more in this about spiritual evolution and the first "I am", but I probably can't articulate it well. Rolling Eyes

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The Evil Atheist

Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 3688
Location: Western Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject:

Mr. O wrote:

rickymoose wrote:

How can we judge "way" beyond?

Ah, but this is one of those things that looks easy, but there's a lot of hidden assumptions, depending on the context. Which is why rickymoose is right that we can't really judge, in general.

For me to survive, I don't have to be a hunter. I have to be a good programmer, tester, and organizational skills in general [not to mention some kind of ethical system].

Other people also have to be very intelligent, at least to be able to game the system. So there is this survival need to push beyond "wilderness survival".
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Apostrophes

Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 4479
Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:05 am Post subject:

Quote:

Consciousness is still very much a mystery but we are finding out new stuff about it. So far, it seems the best guess is that it emerges from the processes of our brain; that the interactions of our neural pathways create a property of subjective self awareness. This has led to ask whether the Internet could ever be conscious for the same reason. It could turn out to just be a side effect of having a brain as complex as ours needs to be.

That's why I think it is almost pointless to compare us to the animal kingdom when it comes to saying we think too much. We cannot lose our subjective self awareness. We ask why, not because we've lost our connection to nature, but because we can.

The question is, does being self aware give an organism with that ability an evolutionary advantage over one that doesn't? We may not have needed it to survive, but if it helps us compete compete against others without it, then natural selection would 'choose' it.

Does my consciousness give me an evolutionary edge? I know I said earlier it is thought not to, but thinking out loud here, maybe it does.

Richard
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Mr. O

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 2436
Location: Springfield, Illinois - USA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:28 am Post subject:

Apostrophes wrote:

That's why I think it is almost pointless to compare us to the animal kingdom when it comes to saying we think too much. We cannot lose our subjective self awareness. We ask why, not because we've lost our connection to nature, but because we can.

The question is, does being self aware give an organism with that ability an evolutionary advantage over one that doesn't? We may not have needed it to survive, but if it helps us compete compete against others without it, then natural selection would 'choose' it.

Having consciousness gave us the idea of comprehending, contemplating, writing about and passing on what "Tao is". Animals seem to live in the flow of the Tao, through consciousness and the complexity of thought and language, we aspire to. This would also be true for a believer in God.
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rickymoose

Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 959

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject:

Mr. O wrote:

Easy, look at the necessities for every species to survive, then look at the necessities for the human to survive, then look at everything the human has beyond what is needed for survival.

Easier said than done.

Quote:

When I see flamingos playing poker, or cheetahs developing a Ph.D. program in Midieval literature then I'll believe that non-essential or what I would call "luxury" complexity is common among all species.

the development of technology allows men to live where they do and to overc0me nature as they do

tecnology requires language

poker is a side effect of language ...
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My question for you is what do you do to make a difference in our world? Really think about that. So much needs doing and the smallest thing can change another's life. ~Jan

The Evil Atheist

Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 3688
Location: Western Australia

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:10 am Post subject:

Quote:

This has led to ask whether the Internet could ever be conscious for the same reason. It could turn out to just be a side effect of having a brain as complex as ours needs to be.

I think the Internet does show some signs of consciousness. It's not the same as our consciousness, in much the same way the consciousness of the brain is not the same as the individual neurons that compose it. Humans are like the neurons of the internet.

Apostrophes wrote:

Does my consciousness give me an evolutionary edge? I know I said earlier it is thought not to, but thinking out loud here, maybe it does

I would say it does. Being able to look at yourself from a different perspective is a great way to be able to work in groups for a common cause. The Golden Rule, despite its clumsiness, is still the best summary of all ethics that came about because we were able to look at ourselves.

Slowly but surely, we are also moving from our violent past as we become even more self-aware.
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rickymoose

Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 959

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:20 am Post subject:

The Evil Atheist wrote:

I was going one further but not having success turning it into a good discussion. I was stipulating evolution has a form of intelligence if not consciousness in its "designs". I've not defined my terms very well in the discussion. See below.

http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=8366.msg160624#new

I compared the products of evolution to design by commitee. Wink

.
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